terresdebrume:
910707 submitted:
Hey there. I saw your post about Malec being an unhealthy relationship & can’t help but want to share my opinions. Actually what you wrote are what i saw a lot of people said about Malec, & i keep wanting to write about it but forgot. Here is what I think:
Yet Magnus passive-aggressively pressures him to reveal their relationship (I’m talking, for example, about that time in City of Ashes where he all but tries to slut-shame Alec into admitting they’re dating —right after Jace outed Alec, btw- or that other time in City of Glass where he stops talking to Alec without warning because Alec isn’t jumping on the whole “out and loud and proud” train right alongside him) (you know, the centuries old powerful warlock with no family to disappoint and no society ready to kick him out in a foreign world if he farts in the wrong direction)
Well, the thing is, Alec is not the only one who is insecure. At that point of their relationship Magnus still thought that Alec didn’t like him that much, he still thought that Alec was in love with Jace, that him dating Magnus was simply an experiment before go back to hiding in his old shell. Magnus’ insecurities was pretty evidence if you read about their The Course of true love or WTBTSWHE (what a long name). Well, some may said that Clare just wrote these two pieces after receiving negative responses about their relationship, but i remember an original draft of City of Glass where Magnus said “you never looked at me” & it was a long time ago, so i believe it was what she intend to do in the first place. They were dating, he thought Alec didn’t love him (while Magnus was head over heels for him), Alec kind of ignored him & stayed beside the one Magnus thought he loved (aka Jace). It’s kinda obvious that Magnus was jealous. About Magnus outed Alec, it’s not exactly “outed” in my opinion, because he knew Isabelle already knew they were dating, Clary & Simon were just outsider, & Jace seems to know too, so for my it’s just simply an act of jealousy & hurt.
Continue to CoG, i take that you think he stopped talking to Alec because he was angry & wanted Alec to accept that they were dating. Well, I think he actually wanted to end their relationship, for real, because he was angry, yes, but also because he feel hopeless in this relationship if Alec remains like that. At the end of CoA, he asked Alec “why do you think i do [what he did]” & Alec didn’t answer him. In WTBTSHE there is this sentence [Magnus wanted to be good to him, not burden him with the weight of feelings that Alec might not return.] When Alec didnt answer his question, there is a possibility that Magnus thought Alec was not ready, or Alec knew about his feeling but didn’t want to acknowledge it. So maybe then he decided “Let’s just leave so Alec can be with someone he really love” or something like that. And they were not “officially dating” anyway, so maybe a proper break-up was not necessary in Magnus’ mind.
Well, aside from these, i don’t see Magnus pressure Alec to do anything else, maybe you can give some examples?
About their break-up in CoLS, it was overdramatic really, but since when Magnus isn’t overdramatic? To be honest, before it was released, i didn’t expect Magnus to forgive Alec so fast in CoHF. But now that i look back, it kind of makes sense. Maybe he broke-up with Alec wasn’t because he was angry at Alec’s action, but more like, at that exact moment he realized this wouldn’t work so he ended it.
The unbalance of power in their relationship is also resolved at the end of CoHF, when Alec is the one who get to decide if they get back together or not. Though I have to admit it happened rather too quickly, but then again they don’t have that much time together, maybe it’s better to work things out while being together rather than seperately, because honestly if a couple need to figure everything out before getting together, the chance is they will never get together at all. There are a lot of things you can’t just sit & think about it but have to jump into it to see where it leads you.
I’m aware that lots of things i said above were based on my own interpertions, but really I think people just misundertood Clare’s intentions (because A. The lack of Malec & B. Clare’s ways of telling their story). And sorry if my English is too bad …
Don’t worry, I understand what you mean so that’s the most important part —and if you feel I misunderstood what you wanted to say, don’t hesitate to tell me about it 🙂
Also this turned out to be really fucking long so I made a little TL;DR at the end, just in case. Anyway, answer under the cut 🙂
Read More
Oh my god i’m so sorry for the late reply, i didn’t see your post in the malec tag so i assumed you were still working at it, i swear i checked the tag everyday for your reply.
Now before reply to your post, i think i should point out that the purpose of my old post is not trying to justify Magnus’ actions or anything, I’m just really annoyed when people use the term “unhealthy relationship” for Malec. First I have personal hatred toward the term (it’s a long story) & honestly think people overuse it nowadays. What’s an unhealthy relationship anyway? I have a vague idea but i’m not totally sure about the definition, so I google it and here is what i found (i also checked what i think it’s true for Malec):
In a healthy relationship, you:
[x] Treat each other with respect
[x] Feel secure and comfortable (somewhat)
[x] Are not violent with each other
[ ] Can resolve conflicts satisfactorily
[x] Enjoy the time you spend together
[x] Support one another
[x] Take interest in one another’s lives: health, family, work, etc.
[x] Have privacy in the relationship
[x] Can trust each other (somewhat)
[x] Are each sexual by choice
[ ] Communicate clearly and openly
[x] Have letters, phone calls, and e-mail that are your own
[?] Make healthy decisions about alcohol or other drugs
[?] Encourage other friendships
[ ] Are honest about your past and present sexual activity if the relationship is intimate
[x] Know that most people in your life are happy about the relationship
[x] Have more good times in the relationship than bad
Result: 12(14)/17
In an unhealthy relationship, one or both of you:
[ ] Try to control or manipulate the other
[?] Make the other feel bad about her/himself (debatable)
[ ] Ridicule or call names
[ ] Dictate how the other dresses
[?] Do not make time for each other (debatable)
[ ] Criticize the other’s friends
[ ] Are afraid of the other’s temper
[ ] Discourage the other from being close with anyone else
[ ] Ignore each other when one is speaking
[x] Are overly possessive or get jealous about ordinary behavior
[ ] Criticize or support others in criticizing people with your gender, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, disability, or other personal attribute
[ ] Control the other’s money or other resources (e.g., car)
[ ] Harm or threaten to harm children, family, pets, or objects of personal value
[ ] Push, grab, hit, punch, or throw objects
[ ] Use physical force or threats to prevent the other from leaving
Result: 3/15
Here is another one:
While in a healthy relationship you:
[?] Take care of yourself and have good self-esteem independent of your relationship (debatable)
[x] Maintain and respect each other’s individuality
[x] Maintain relationships with friends and family
[x] Have activities apart from one another
[x] Are able to express yourselves to one another without fear of consequences
[x] Are able to feel secure and comfortable
[x] Allow and encourage other relationships
[x] Take interest in one another’s activities
[x] Do not worry about violence in the relationship
[?] Trust each other and be honest with each other
[x] Have the option of privacy
[x] Have respect for sexual boundaries
[?] Are honest about sexual activity if it is a sexual relationship
[x] Accept influence. Relationships are give and take; allowing your partner to influence you is important; this
can be especially difficult for some men.
[?] Resolve conflict fairly: Fighting is part of even healthy relationships. The difference is how the conflict is
handled. Fighting fairly is an important skill you help you have healthier relationships.
Result: 11/15
While in an unhealthy relationship you:
[x] Put one person before the other by neglecting yourself or your partner (does Jace count?)
[ ] Feel pressure to change who you are for the other person
[ ] Feel worried when you disagree with the other person
[ ] Feel pressure to quit activities you usually/used to enjoy
[ ] Pressure the other person into agreeing with you or changing to suit you better
[ ] Notice one of you has to justify your actions (e.g. where you go, who you see)
[ ] Notice one partner feels obligated to have sex or has been forced
[ ] Have a lack of privacy, and may be forced to share everything with the other person
[ ] You or your partner refuse to use safer sex methods
[ ] Notice arguments are not settled fairly
[ ] Experience yelling or physical violence during an argument
[ ] Attempt to control or manipulate each other
[ ] Notice your partner attempts to controls how you dress and criticizes your behaviors
[ ] Do not make time to spend with one another
[?] Have no common friends, or have a lack of respect for each others’ friends and family (debatable)
[x] Notice an unequal control of resources (food, money, home, car, etc.) => i’m thinking of Magnus’ apartment
[ ] Experience a lack of fairness and equality
[?] When you are unhappy in a relationship, but cannot decide if you should accept it, try to improve the relationship, or end the relationship. (debatable)
[ ] When you have decided to leave a relationship, but find yourself still in the relationship.
[ ] When you think you are staying in the relationship for the wrong reasons, such as fear of being alone or guilt.
[?] If you have a history of staying in unhealthy relationships. => Well. Magnus’ relationship with Camille is definitely not a very healthy one
Result: 5/21
(Feel free to disagree with what i checked)
See? Their relationship definitely has more healthy aspects than unhealthy ones but as soon as people saw something bad in the relationship, they jumped to the conclusion that it’s unhealthy. It makes me feel like, for people, a relationship need ALL the signs to be healthy but only need one bad sign to become unhealthy. It’s double standard & not fair.
The most important thing i found while google was: “At times all relationships will have some of the below [unhealthy] characteristics. However, unhealthy relationships will exhibit these characteristics more frequently and cause you stress and pressure that is hard to avoid. This tension is unhealthy for both members and may lead to problems in other areas of your life.”
So my point if yes, there are some problems with Malec, but please stop calling them unhealthy because the word is bad & bring negative image for their relationship
———————————————————————
Now about your post, first I’m very confused with this
However, those insecurities don’t appear clearly in TMI. Usually, he’s mostly portrayed as either trying to get Alec to be more open about the two of them (in the first three books, a storyline which culminates in City of Glass with the Coming Out Kiss) or trying to avoid saying anything about his past (in the last three books, a storyline that culminates with Alec’s encounters with Camille and the subsequent Malec breakup). Whether it was a decision from Cassandra Clare or from her editors, the fact that Magnus’ insecurities don’t appear ‘on screen’ so to speak, means they aren’t part of TMI canon and therefore that they can’t be automatically assumed to have informed the way he’s written in TMI.
Okay, I understand you meant “things that written in TBC are not part of TMI & there are people who only read TMI”. But we, you & I here, are aware of the existence of TBC, and we were discussing Malec’s relationship as a whole. Since they’re not the main characters, their screentimes in TMI are limited, therefore TBC became a very important source if anyone want to understand their relationship. In my opinion, in this conversation between you & me, we should consider TBC as one of the main reference soure instead of ignore it just because it wasn’t part of TMI. (In short, i don’t care what people who doesn’t read TBC think about Malec, what I’m trying to do here is discuss Malec with someone who read & consider TBC canon which it is – and i’m more than happy to wait for you to finish WTBTSWHE & TCOTL, but if even after finish them you still consider TBC as not TMI canon then maybe we should stop the conversation here because our starting points are different therefore this conversation will lead nowhere)
Moving on.
The main points of your post, as i understand was Malec is unhealthy because:
A) Magnus puts pressure on Alec (to come out), not on purpose, but the end result is the same
I don’t think I can really argue with the first points, because it’s true.
B) The way Magnus acts constantly puts Alec in a position where he’s framed as not good enough
This one is somewhat true. But people often forget that Magnus is also the one who boost Ale’s confidence the most. Insecure feelings exist in every relationships so it’s not entire Magnus’ fault that Alec feels bad about himself. Actually i think other people in Alec’s life, such as his parents & Jace (expecially Jace!), are bigger at fault in making Alec insecure about himself.
C) None of them acknowledge the real problems of their relationships in CoHF which is:
Their lack of communication
Alec is also half responsible for their lack in communication. Alec, as I recall, never actually tell Magnus about his feelings for Jace & for Magnus himself before CoG. (Actually we have never seen Alec said he loves Magnus outloud in the entire series, & Clare also wrote something to explain this in which I called bullshit – she just doesn’t care) Magnus knew about Alec’s feelings for Jace because he is old & knows stuffs in reading people. Alec also never said “Please understand that I’m scared & confused & still in love with Jace but I promise I will figure it out & love you so please wait for me”. He only said “I never date anyone so I don’t know what to do with all this”, which in my opinion will push Magnus in a position where he has to be understanding & responsible for guiding their relationship into the right direction. We never saw Alec promises anything to Magnus or apologizes for his behaviors (i’m refering to when Alec was a little bit touchy-feely with Jace at Magnus’ house right infront of Magnus & then avoid Magnus’ touches right after). That’s where Alec took Magnus’ feelings for granted & i think that’s what Magnus were talking about in CoG. (Also, about the payment for Magnus’ services, I think he did get paid for official business with the Clave – like when the Insiquitor hired him to watch over Jace, or when Maryse needed him to open a portal, it would be too suspicious if he didnt ask for any money, and even then he gave them an unusual discount! Other than that, he never ask for Alec or Alec’s friends’ money).
Moving to CoFA, people said that Magnus didn’t tell Alec anything in the firts place, but I think it’s because Alec didn’t ask. I feel like the time when he asked why Magnus didn’t tell him about Camille, is actually the first time Alec realized he didnt know anything about Magnus & started to be curious about Magnus’ past. But then Alec’s reactions were bad (for good reasons i understand, but still bad). Magnus already has lots of reason to share his past, & now he knew that Alec would react badly with them, so the more reasons for him not to talk about it. (Quote from CoLS: “Maybe because you can’t ask me about my past without picking a fight about how I’m going to live forever and you’re not,”). You can say it here that Magnus was just trying to blame Alec but it’s true that Alec always has an attitude when it comes to Magnus’ past. One more prove from CoLS that Alec didn’t ask is when Azazel mentioned Magnus’ father, Alec was surprised because he assumed Magnus didn’t know about his father. My take about this whole Magnus’ past issues is, Magnus is not very comfortable talking about it, but if the situations was different, if there wasn’t any Camille trying to tear them apart, then Alec wouldn’t be so angry with Magnus & they could slowly wait until Magnus feels more comfortable around the topic.
In short, they’re both at fault & they did communicate more in CoHF, Alec stated that he wanted Magnus to open up to him without throwing a tantrum & Magnus shared past. It’s baby steps, but they are getting there. The problem can’t magically go away at the end of the book consider the book happened in such a short time, but they did show that they are trying & it’s not fair to just dismiss their efforts.
“Alec is entirely too dependant on Magnus’ opinion of him for his own self esteem”
I think this quote said otherwise: “I’ve been sorry and I’ve been understood and I’ve apologized and apologized, and you haven’t ever been there. I did all that without you. So it makes me wonder what else I could do, without you” This is from their earlier conversation in CoHF, way before the make-up scene.
D) Alec will probably never know what a healthy relationship is & in the future they both are going to be hurt if their relationship continue like this
I want to say this again, Malec is problematic, but not unhealthy!
I’ve heard so many people said something along the line “So why don’t they just spend more time thiking & let Alec get more experiences before get back together”. First, I douted that Alec can get any healthy experiences from watching people around him such as his parents or Clace or Sizzy. To really understand it, he has to be in another relationship himself which he doesn’t want to because he loves Magnus. I will paste what i wrote before here “they don’t have that much time together, Alec can die any day, so maybe it’s better to work things out while being together rather than seperately, because honestly if a couple need to figure everything out before getting together, the chance is they will never get together at all.”
———————————————————————
Believe it or not, i actually read most the posts you’ve recommend way before this conversation, I just didn’t recognize you … (sorry about that). Mostly I saw posts about how Alec is mistreated & I can’t help but noticed most of you are Alec’s fans. Don’t get me wrong I’m an Alec girl myself & I do think that Alec’s mistreated by CC & will fight to the death if someone says all the problems were Alec’s faults. But I also think as Alec’s fans there is possibility that you guys kind of forget to see the problems from Magnus’s POV. I myself have a lot of doubt about Magnus before TBC, but after TBC I can say that I will never ship any ship as hard as I ship them. I really think you should read WTBTSWHE. you may find another problematic things as well, but you also get to see a lot about how Magnus thinks of Alec, how Alec is the one who brought Magnus peace & how Alec is ‘the one’
(Also I think this post is very unfair to Magnus. This is not a deleted scene, this is a scene that get rewrite, so basically it doesn’t have any meaning anymore & not canon! Magnus never did it! Stop blaming him for everything!)
Conclusion: The thing we agreed on:
– CC doesn’t give Malec what they’re deserved
– Malec has some serious problems
The thing that I disagree:
– Malec is UNHEALTHY (seriously I hate this word!)
– Alec is at fault too but Magnus’ faults if bigger!
(Kinda irrelevant)- People tried to dismiss Alec’s feelings for Jace! No, he didn’t love Jace but he did have more than brotherly feelings toward him! Alec is not an angel! We all have had that crush that we deeply regret! It’s make sense for him to have a crush on the only handsome guy in his life before Magnus! I hate Jace with a passion & also the way CC constantly remind us how great he is, but I like to imagine Alec someday thinks back about his crush for Jace & says “Jesus christ what was I thinking” & realize how much Magnus is better for him!
– "Alec was a shy, closeted gay so he should not act so carelessly with Magnus at the beginning of their relationship (skinship, touching, kissing etc)“ No! Just because he doesn’t want people know he is gay didn’t mean he doesn’t want to be gay! I think he accepted his sexuality & derises, just not very excited about people knowing about them. Alec is a young healthy teenager boy who never date anyone, of course he is thirsty! I’m tired of this fandom describe him like a scared jumpy little bunny!
… End of rant
(sorry about my English again)
lanablack 